Erie Isle Wiki: Group Leadership Class
Transcript from a group leadership class in Erie, March 19, 2009
[9:04] Colleen Marjeta: Okay... so ... let's get started
[9:04] Colleen Marjeta: First thing is... I have an ulterior motive here
[9:05] Colleen Marjeta: We _need_ strong leaders here in Erie... at every level
[9:05] Colleen Marjeta: So .. my plan is to brainwash all of you
[9:05] Colleen Marjeta: and then put ya to work
[9:06] Chibiusa Pinklady: Can I vote for immunity? Maybe gutting the person next to me as a challenge?
[9:06] Colleen Marjeta: Hmmm.. maybe
[9:06] Hadessa Moonites: work? what is work?
[9:06] Colleen Marjeta: ok ... so ... this is really targeted at three groups of people
[9:06] Zion Volos: A powerpoint? Bows town to Coll.
[9:06] Colleen Marjeta: the GM staff who currently run factions
[9:06] Colleen Marjeta: people who are team or squad leaders or whatever within the factions
[9:06] Colleen Marjeta: and then anyone else who wants to get hooked in to that
[9:07] Colleen Marjeta: The bottom line is... the interactions between the different groups here really drives the roleplay a lot of the time
[9:07] Jzara Zsun: I have never been here before, just saw this class in search
[9:07] Colleen Marjeta: Super! Welcome then!
[9:07] Jzara Zsun: :)
[9:07] Rayven Trefoil laughs, "I just wanna ensure they're doing their job propperly"
[9:08] Colleen Marjeta: ok... the bottom line message here... is that this is a skill anyone can learn
[9:08] Colleen Marjeta: I actually read an article last week in the harvard business review hehe
[9:08] Colleen Marjeta: which says a lot of companies are studying the way leadership works in online environments
[9:09] Colleen Marjeta: specifcally their focusing on SL, WoW and other area like that
[9:09] Colleen Marjeta: because fundamentally leadership of _any_ group takes some of the same skills
[9:09] Colleen Marjeta: What I've tried to do here... is break down some of the things that I'm emprically watching... and see working
[9:10] Colleen Marjeta: so ... I'm not an expert... but these are the things that I've observed work
[9:10] Colleen Marjeta: fair enough?
[9:10] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:10] Athena Blackadder: go for t
[9:10] Zion Volos: *awesome*
[9:10] Colleen Marjeta: ok ...when you think of a leader ... here in the sim, and in other roleplay environments... who comes to mind?
[9:11] Blitz Salamander: Those who get people motivated
[9:11] Blitz Salamander: oops - an example?
[9:11] Colleen Marjeta: Don't have to name names
[9:11] Chibiusa Pinklady: Those who have power, and the charisma to use it wisely.
[9:11] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:11] Colleen Marjeta: I'm more interested in identifying the qualities
[9:12] Colleen Marjeta: ok ... one thing I fundamentally believe is ... not all of our leaders are designated as such
[9:12] Rayven Trefoil nods
[9:12] Colleen Marjeta: In other words... they aren't necesarily a formal faction leader or GM
[9:13] Colleen Marjeta: Does anyone come to mind off the top of your head that we know here who you'd consider a leader? but isn't actually a group leader?
[9:13] Rayven Trefoil cough Baaz for about three month when I was last here
[9:13] Gloriana Maertens: Sophie
[9:13] Colleen Marjeta: Yes... great examples in both cases
[9:13] Chibiusa Pinklady: Anyone who starts a roleplay of any kind.
[9:13] Alsoran Luminos gave you hospital shortages.
[9:13] Colleen Marjeta: Right...
[9:13] Colleen Marjeta: They're people who are out there making things happen
[9:14] Colleen Marjeta: stirring up trouble
[9:14] Colleen Marjeta: And just as importantly... they're getting _other_ people engaged
[9:15] Colleen Marjeta: Part of what I'm driving at here is that leaders tend to be self appointed, if that makes sense
[9:16] Rayven Trefoil: yup
[9:16] Blitz Salamander: Wise man once said, you aren't given leadership, you take it
[9:16] Alsoran Luminos nods
[9:16] Colleen Marjeta: They don't get hired and trained up ... they're the people who we observe out there doing things... and _then_ we recruit them
[9:16] Chibiusa Pinklady: Or everyone else steps back... hehe
[9:16] Colleen Marjeta: Yes... that too
[9:16] Colleen Marjeta: Back when I roleplayed in toxia
[9:17] Colleen Marjeta: I got called a "whore roleplayer" a couple times
[9:17] Colleen Marjeta: because I tended to simply step in and start doing things
[9:17] Colleen Marjeta: but the fact is... if everyone sits back ... nothing happens
[9:17] Chibiusa Pinklady: Lovely ol Toxia.
[9:17] Colleen Marjeta: which is death for roleplay
[9:18] Colleen Marjeta: So... I'm going to go through some things that are specific to here ... but are things that I feel are truly important in being successful at this
[9:18] Colleen Marjeta: The first one is having a clear vision
[9:18] Colleen Marjeta: Anyone here served in the military?
[9:18] Colleen Marjeta: You don't have to answer if you don't want heh
[9:18] Colleen Marjeta: But ....
[9:18] Colleen Marjeta: Way back when I didn't have gray hair in RL I was in the army
[9:19] Colleen Marjeta: and one of the things that I got involved in was drafting operations plans for a tank battalion
[9:19] Colleen Marjeta: and the first section of any of those plans was what was called the "commander's intent"
[9:19] Colleen Marjeta: It was basically one or two paragraphs, tops
[9:19] Colleen Marjeta: that described what the overall goals were of any given mission
[9:19] Colleen Marjeta: The idea was: you can't cut off the head
[9:19] Colleen Marjeta: If the commander got whacked... everyone knew what the vision was
[9:20] Colleen Marjeta: SO the next person steps up and carries it out
[9:20] Colleen Marjeta: and on down the chain of command
[9:20] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:20] Colleen Marjeta: So a good leader doesn't micromanage and spell out the specific steps to take
[9:20] Colleen Marjeta: a good leader says something like: "Our goal is to steal all the souls in Erie" or whatever
[9:20] Rayven Trefoil nods
[9:21] Colleen Marjeta: and then lets their team carry it out
[9:21] Colleen Marjeta: The other piece here is what Blitz said I think... motivating people ... sharing that vision
[9:21] Colleen Marjeta: Anyone can give orders ... but the groups I see that are _most_ effective here
[9:21] Alsoran Luminos wonders if the souls come wiht cavier
[9:21] Colleen Marjeta: have 100% buy in
[9:21] Colleen Marjeta: from their players
[9:22] Colleen Marjeta: I'm trying to think of a good example of a big roleplay we've carried out that represents that
[9:22] Colleen Marjeta: anything come to mind?
[9:22] Colleen Marjeta: Okay... this goes way back ... but the example I'm thinking of is from one of our earliest simwide roleplays
[9:22] Alsoran Luminos: the dread door curse?
[9:22] Blitz Salamander: The cursing of the doorways wasn't big but it was a group effort by the Dread
[9:22] Blitz Salamander: yep haha
[9:23] Colleen Marjeta: When the Army occupied the island
[9:23] Athena Blackadder: yes that was a good one
[9:23] Colleen Marjeta: we had a bunch of people playing NPCs ... including some players who got recruited
[9:23] Colleen Marjeta: and it was only _very_ loosely directed
[9:23] Colleen Marjeta: but the NPC players _knew_ what the overall missions was .. and they went out and did it on their own
[9:24] Colleen Marjeta: they kept communicating with each other and posting notices
[9:24] Colleen Marjeta: and had a hell of a lot of fun in the process
[9:24] Colleen Marjeta: ok so that takes us to one of the key things we need
[9:24] Colleen Marjeta: is communication
[9:25] Colleen Marjeta: you all know I'm a member of _all_ of the factions
[9:25] Colleen Marjeta: SO I get spammed with your group chat and notices constantly
[9:25] Hadessa Moonites: sooorrry
[9:25] Colleen Marjeta: And a pattern has become VERY clear to me
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: the groups that are constantly talking to each other
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: posting notices
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: using group chat?
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: those are the ones who are most effective
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: the quiet groups? they're the ones struggling
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: So if you're a leader... or want to be one... I would say your NUMBER ONE tool ... is getting into group chat
[9:26] Colleen Marjeta: every day
[9:27] Colleen Marjeta: you log in, pop up and ask how things are going
[9:27] Athena Blackadder: s'upside down
[9:28] Colleen Marjeta: Now... here's the key point
[9:28] Colleen Marjeta: You don't have to be the faction leader to do that
[9:28] Rayven Trefoil chips in, "This is an asside, but i think it emphasizes the point, one of the major players in that T place were the shadows, and to me one of the reasons was, They talked constantly in voice often oocly
[9:28] Colleen Marjeta: Ray has a HUGE point there
[9:28] Chibiusa Pinklady: That doesn't even have to be done in groups.
[9:28] Rayven Trefoil: works in WoW groups too
[9:29] Colleen Marjeta: Not all of you will want to use voice, but it's a fact.. no question... that if the team is in constant communication... you can make things happen
[9:29] Colleen Marjeta: Now .. I want to point to my second point here on the list...
[9:29] Colleen Marjeta: Sometimes we get into a mode where it's all one on one
[9:29] Colleen Marjeta: You might have a leader stuck in IMs all day
[9:29] Colleen Marjeta: with their individual team members
[9:30] Colleen Marjeta: but where that fails... is when the leader logs off
[9:30] Colleen Marjeta: or takes a break
[9:30] Colleen Marjeta: or falls into a hole or whatever
[9:30] Colleen Marjeta: Which is why I really push the group chat, or skype, or whatever other means you can use to keep people talking
[9:30] Rayven Trefoil mutters "Colleen of the ryders got spammed in personal IM's every time things went ary... not by me... honest"
[9:31] Colleen Marjeta laughs
[9:31] Colleen Marjeta: It's true... I've had to learn to not be paralyzed by IMs, cause when things are hot they can get pretty bad
[9:31] Colleen Marjeta: Now, we all know second life's group chat sometimes fails
[9:31] Alsoran Luminos callls that the gm cloud... when they get stuck motionless with a glazed look in the eye.
[9:31] Chibiusa Pinklady: Even simple IMs during Roleplay can make it more interesting.
[9:31] Colleen Marjeta: Just every once in a while
[9:32] Colleen Marjeta: So some of us are using other tools for that... but I'd HIGHLY encourage you to use these as often as possible
[9:32] Blitz Salamander: other tools?
[9:32] Alsoran Luminos: tools?
[9:32] Colleen Marjeta: Actually a good example is the radio hud we're using on the staff
[9:32] Blitz Salamander: ah yes
[9:32] Colleen Marjeta: Doesn't the brigade also have some kind of internal radio they are using?
[9:33] Zion Volos: which is fantastic, btw
[9:33] Chibiusa Pinklady: Do they operate across sims?
[9:33] Rayven Trefoil: ventrilo and skype work well also
[9:33] Blitz Salamander: Maybe Nomads need a trained carrier pigeon to communicate icly ... not a radio ...
[9:34] Colleen Marjeta: Our staff radio works in all of our sims ... and I've been seriously considering setting up a variant for use by all the groups
[9:34] Colleen Marjeta: Only because group chat is so often broken
[9:34] Journey Maertens: Yes, Col.. the FD uses SL radio
[9:34] Colleen Marjeta: ok... moving on from this is organizational structure
[9:34] Colleen Marjeta: Can anyone tell me why chain of command matters?
[9:35] Majestek Magic: so the baal doesn't get dropped
[9:35] Gloriana Maertens: ....I sleep. Occasionaly. :)
[9:35] Blitz Salamander: Keeps roleplay moving
[9:35] Majestek Magic: *ball
[9:35] Hadessa Moonites: so the people on the bottom knwo who to throw the trouble at when it happens
[9:35] Rayven Trefoil: so people don't go doing their own thing
[9:35] Zion Volos: because if Gloria is in hiding and I have a head injury, someone needs to think for us
[9:35] Colleen Marjeta: Right ... exactly... all of those things
[9:35] Gloriana Maertens nudges Zion. "We need that anyway."
[9:35] Rayven Trefoil: and stay on task
[9:35] Zion Volos: "Amen."
[9:35] Colleen Marjeta: There's few things that kill a roleplay more quickly than the words, "we have to wait until tommorrow when the GM is back"
[9:36] Rayven Trefoil nods
[9:36] Alsoran Luminos wonders of that is where the supplies went
[9:36] Colleen Marjeta: Every group of any kind needs to have a clear structure that lays out... who is in charge? and what is the scope of decisions a person can make
[9:37] Colleen Marjeta: As in... your second in command for example might be able to order something major
[9:37] Colleen Marjeta: But you don't necessarily want a new player negotiating an alliance with a different faction
[9:37] Colleen Marjeta: So the scope of what people can do has to be clear
[9:37] Colleen Marjeta: But I tend to lean in favor of pushing as much authority down the chain as you possibly can
[9:37] Chibiusa Pinklady: Usually a chain of command is about delegation
[9:37] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:38] Colleen Marjeta: It's about delegation yes... but it's also about letting people take initiative
[9:38] Colleen Marjeta: As a leader you should be saying what the overall vision is... and communicating that. But don't make your players clear every step of the way to get there. Let them get out there and do it. Trust them.
[9:38] Colleen Marjeta: If they screw up, then you have to fix it
[9:39] Colleen Marjeta: But that's not nearly as bad as nothing happening at all
[9:39] Colleen Marjeta: I'll give an example: one place I played that shall go unnammed... the GM of the group required us to submit personal roleplays
[9:39] Colleen Marjeta: and get approval
[9:39] Colleen Marjeta: here was the problem
[9:39] Journey Maertens: wow
[9:40] Colleen Marjeta: She was in the sim ... 3 or 4 hours a day
[9:40] Colleen Marjeta: which left everyone in different time zones... just ... dead in the water
[9:40] Gloriana Maertens facepalms
[9:40] Zion Volos: doh!
[9:40] Chibiusa Pinklady: Even if that person was a machine capable of bveing in sim 24 hours a day
[9:40] Colleen Marjeta: So... I can't stress enough how critically important it is to trust your folks to do the right thing
[9:40] Chibiusa Pinklady: Forcing that ruins any spontanious role play.
[9:41] Colleen Marjeta: absolutely Chibiusa
[9:41] Chibiusa Pinklady: Keeping a group on a short leash eventually kills your group.
[9:41] Colleen Marjeta: Yes... that's exactly right
[9:41] Colleen Marjeta: Yes... that's exactly right
[9:41] Colleen Marjeta: Remember... we're all here to do what.... have fun!
[9:41] Colleen Marjeta: We have to give people a chance to do that
[9:42] Colleen Marjeta: ok.... so my personal perspective is that good leadership is about caring for people
[9:42] Colleen Marjeta: I pulled in a quote from Napolean of all people here
[9:42] Colleen Marjeta: Because ... you need to get to know the people on your team... what they care about... what matters to them
[9:43] Colleen Marjeta: Talk to them all the time
[9:43] Colleen Marjeta: Because a good team is all about relationships
[9:43] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:43] Alsoran Luminos: (( he got the idea from Henry V))
[9:43] Colleen Marjeta: And the last point here I would argue may be the most important... which is: loyalty to your folks
[9:43] Colleen Marjeta: If you expect loyalty from your team... you have to give it to them as well
[9:44] Colleen Marjeta: That doesn't mean giving in to them on everything... but it does mean watching out for them... making sur ethey get what they need... removing barriers... helping whenever you can
[9:44] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:44] Chibiusa Pinklady: But still letting them solve thier own problems. Helping only if they truly require it.
[9:44] Colleen Marjeta: Anyone here ever worked for a really crappy boss who treated people like dirt?
[9:45] Chibiusa Pinklady raises hand
[9:45] Blitz Salamander nods a lot
[9:45] Colleen Marjeta: Did you stay?
[9:45] Blitz Salamander: nope
[9:45] Rayven Trefoil smiles
[9:45] Colleen Marjeta: Yeah exactly
[9:45] Chibiusa Pinklady: A lil while. Good money.
[9:45] Colleen Marjeta: Loyalty is earned
[9:45] Hadessa Moonites: i tried to feed them cookies
[9:46] Colleen Marjeta: okay... part of that loyalty is being willing to accept it like an adult when you get criticized
[9:46] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:47] Colleen Marjeta: I don't know about you all.. but I've made some serious mistakes along the way since we started this sim
[9:47] Colleen Marjeta: I think I'm probably not alone there?
[9:47] Zion Volos: I'm right there with ya
[9:47] Blitz Salamander: give me time
[9:47] Colleen Marjeta: So... we have to be open to listen to criticism
[9:47] Alsoran Luminos leaves her avatar to record as RL calles her away
[9:47] Chibiusa Pinklady: I think I'm pretty much perfect. ^_^
[9:47] Gloriana Maertens raises her hand. "Ooo! Pick me! Pick me!"
[9:47] Hadessa Moonites: most likely.
[9:47] Colleen Marjeta: It doesn't mean you compromise what you believe in
[9:48] Colleen Marjeta: but the bottom line is: if someone is taking the time ... and risk... of saying soemthing critical... we have to avoid the tendency to get defensive, and _really_ listen
[9:48] Zion Volos gave you XP.
[9:48] Colleen Marjeta: okay.. I'm looking for someone to volunteer a good example here
[9:49] Zion Volos raises his hand
[9:49] Zion Volos: wait
[9:49] Zion Volos: nevermind
[9:49] Colleen Marjeta: hah ok
[9:49] Zion Volos: sorry :/
[9:49] DCS2 2.45.2: MuZiKLaBeN Minton is now level 2
[9:49] MuZiKLaBeN Minton looks shiftily side to side
[9:49] Liace Parx: Lost me somewhere... example of what?
[9:49] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: yay
[9:49] Rayven Trefoil: congratz
[9:49] Chibiusa Pinklady: I can volunteer
[9:50] Reign Mizin: grats
[9:50] DCS2 2.45.2: Journey Maertens OOC: congrats
[9:50] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: ty Rayven
[9:50] Gloriana Maertens: gratz Ben. :)
[9:50] Hadessa Moonites: congratz
[9:50] DCS2 2.45.2: Athena Blackadder OOC: gratz
[9:50] Colleen Marjeta: go ahead Chibiusa
[9:50] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: ty al
[9:50] Zion Volos: gratz
[9:50] Chibiusa Pinklady: Of the saying critical thing, or the reacting?
[9:50] Colleen Marjeta: either one
[9:50] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: ooo
[9:50] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: oo
[9:50] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: Ill react to criticism
[9:50] Chibiusa Pinklady: Grats, Mu
[9:50] Colleen Marjeta: What I'm looking for is: what worked? or didn't?
[9:50] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: thanks
[9:51] Chibiusa Pinklady: Generally, if I was ever critisized, I'd see if their argument had a justification.
[9:51] Athena Blackadder: I"m sorry but I have to go, I can't stay on anymore
[9:51] Chibiusa Pinklady: If it did, I'd take steps to deal with it.
[9:51] Colleen Marjeta waves to Athena
[9:51] Journey Maertens: bye Athena
[9:51] Chibiusa Pinklady: Cya Athena
[9:51] Reign Mizin: bye
[9:51] Colleen Marjeta: Yes... that's exactly what I'm driving at
[9:51] MuZiKLaBeN Minton throws a kinfe at Athena, but as she poofs it misses
[9:51] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: damn!
[9:52] Colleen Marjeta: the bottom line is: anyone who does... well... anything... is going to be open to criticism
[9:52] Colleen Marjeta: I had to explain that to my 13 year old ... who is posting comics he writes up on the internet
[9:52] Majestek Magic: hee hee
[9:52] Gloriana Maertens: Awww!
[9:52] Colleen Marjeta: and the most vocal people tend to log in and say bad things about them
[9:52] Blitz Salamander: awesome
[9:52] Colleen Marjeta: but the bottom line is: if you're out there and making things happen
[9:52] Chibiusa Pinklady: Of course
[9:52] Zion Volos: see: YouTube comemnts
[9:52] Journey Maertens: awww.. give me the link.. i will give him cookies
[9:52] Colleen Marjeta: some people won't like it :P
[9:52] Colleen Marjeta: But...
[9:53] Chibiusa Pinklady: There are two types of critisim
[9:53] Chibiusa Pinklady: Constructive and Trolling ^^
[9:53] Colleen Marjeta: it's a matter of filtering... what's justified... what isn't... what's constructive... and what isn't
[9:53] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:53] Colleen Marjeta: and if its a justified issue... then it's gotta be dealt with
[9:54] Colleen Marjeta: Bear in mind... it takes a certain amount of courage to step up and criticize something
[9:54] Colleen Marjeta: especially if you're doing it to a gm or group leader
[9:54] Colleen Marjeta: GMs in particular have the ability to remove someone from their friends and the people care about ... that's a frightening responsibility
[9:54] Colleen Marjeta: So we have to be extra extra careful
[9:55] Colleen Marjeta: about making sure we're open and that our people know we are
[9:55] Rayven Trefoil: uhuh it's easy to critisize after the fact and not support your critisim with any solutions
[9:55] Chibiusa Pinklady: Of course, Politeness on both sides is important.
[9:55] Colleen Marjeta: True Ray... which is one of the reasons I always ask for two things: one is courtesy... and the other is offering some constructive way to deal with the problem
[9:56] Rayven Trefoil nods, "....two finger typist, I look down instead of reading"
[9:56] Colleen Marjeta: ok let's talk about trusting people
[9:56] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: oo
[9:57] MuZiKLaBeN Minton: I like taking advantage of that
[9:57] Colleen Marjeta: the example I gave of the group leader who required pre-approval is the perfect example
[9:57] Rayven Trefoil nods
[9:57] Colleen Marjeta: Here was a case where the players couldn't be trusted to do the right thing
[9:57] Colleen Marjeta: and it killed roleplay
[9:57] Colleen Marjeta: So.. what I urge you to do ... is trust your team.... let them make mistakes
[9:57] Colleen Marjeta: We can always go back and fix things later
[9:58] Colleen Marjeta: but if you tie people's hands? and don't give them the tools they need to succeed? then everything slows down and dies
[9:58] Colleen Marjeta: ok... the next bit is a little sensitive
[9:59] Colleen Marjeta: but who has been in a group ... in SL or in RL... where people couldn't trust each other? or didn't? for whatever reason?
[9:59] Blitz Salamander nods
[9:59] Colleen Marjeta: I'm looking for: how did it function? How did that lack of trust impact the team as a whole?
[9:59] Blitz Salamander: apathy, aggression, stagnation
[9:59] Gloriana Maertens: It killed it. Almost completely.
[10:00] Colleen Marjeta: Yes exactly
[10:00] Zion Volos: things don't get done and everyone starts blaming everyone else
[10:00] Hadessa Moonites: cautious fear of communicating because of the though that we would get the axe next
[10:00] Colleen Marjeta: Yes... all of those things
[10:01] Colleen Marjeta: For a group leader it means not coming down too hard on people when they screw up too
[10:01] Colleen Marjeta: Because once you do that... people won't trust you enough to tell you what's going on
[10:01] Colleen Marjeta: and you're crippled from that point forward
[10:01] Colleen Marjeta: So ... what I've learned here mostly... is to be very forgiving of mistakes
[10:01] Colleen Marjeta: because people are going to make them
[10:02] Colleen Marjeta: Instead you move on, learn from it, make it a constructive experience for everyone
[10:02] Hadessa Moonites: ?
[10:02] Colleen Marjeta: Dessa?
[10:02] Hadessa Moonites: So how do you know when you're being too hard or not hard enough?
[10:02] Colleen Marjeta: I ask people
[10:02] Colleen Marjeta: Constantly
[10:03] Colleen Marjeta: In our staff meetings... in smaller interactions... there's several people I regularly ask for feedback while thing are happening
[10:03] Rayven Trefoil: gah!
[10:03] Colleen Marjeta: Because you're right, sometimes you don't know
[10:03] Colleen Marjeta: ok .. looks like dcs is broken
[10:03] Rayven Trefoil: yup
[10:03] Colleen Marjeta: I'm taking mine off to avoid spam
[10:03] Colleen Marjeta: ok ... now the flip side of this
[10:04] Colleen Marjeta: you let people make mistakes... you trust them to do the right thing... but if they violate that trust? ESPECIALLY if they lie to you?
[10:04] Colleen Marjeta: then that has to be dealt with quickly
Part 2
Page last updated Oct-16-2009 12:00 AM by Colleen Marjeta
